Between making time for work, household, associates, train, chores, buying—the record goes on and on—it might really feel like an enormous accomplishment to only take a couple of minutes to learn a guide or watch TV earlier than mattress. All that busyness can result in poor sleep high quality once we lastly do get to place our head down.
How does our relationship with relaxation have an effect on our skill to achieve actual advantages from it? And the way can we use our free time to relaxation in a tradition that always moralizes relaxation as laziness? Alex Soojung-Kim Pang, the creator of a number of books on relaxation and director of world applications at 4 Day Week World, explains what relaxation is and the way anybody can begin doing it extra successfully.
Take heed to the dialog right here:
The next transcript has been edited for readability:
Ian Bogost: , Becca, though I relaxation within the sense of going sideways and unconscious at night time, I don’t really feel like I relaxation sufficient. Or possibly that I don’t relaxation correctly. I imply, possibly I don’t even know what relaxation is, even.
Becca Rashid: Similar for me. I really feel like between sleep and work, these breaks that I want have by no means actually been included in my life.
Bogost: , I used to be desirous about it, Becca: Relaxation is known as a cornerstone idea in Western civilization. Like, it’s within the Bible. Proper at first of Genesis, there’s presupposed to be a Sabbath—a day of relaxation, a break from making and utilizing to doing one thing else. And what’s that one thing else? , within the spiritual sense, it’s a time for worship, for God. And in that sense, it’s not like “relaxation” is a break, precisely. It’s extra like a construction, like an organizing precept. Like: Right here’s a factor you want with a purpose to make the remainder of your life function.
Rashid: I imply, the mainstream type of American Protestant work ethic implies that relaxation must be extra than simply relaxation. , it’s working towards different must-dos. The day of Sabbath is for relaxation and worship, going to church, serving the neighborhood, serving your loved ones. Proper?
And if we’re actually speaking about sleep as relaxation, that’s one factor. And many people in all probability want we may discover extra hours. And research present solely a 3rd of Individuals report feeling they bought high quality sleep.
Bogost: Not shocking.
Rashid: Not shocking in any respect, with youthful adults and girls extra possible than others to report hassle sleeping. These teams are literally extra affected by their high quality of sleep, you already know, giving ourselves alternatives to relaxation. I’m interested by whether or not now we have to justify it to ourselves once we relaxation as one thing we deserve as an alternative of one thing we’d like.
Rashid: Welcome to How you can Preserve Time. I’m Becca Rashid, co-host and producer of the present.
Bogost: And I’m Ian Bogost, co-host and contributing author at The Atlantic.
Pang: At the very least an area is opening up for pondering in a different way concerning the relationship between work and time and productiveness, and the place that relaxation and leisure can have in it.
Bogost: So Becca, Alex Soojung-Kim Pang is type of rest-obsessed. He’s written just a few books concerning the subject, and one is actually known as Relaxation.
Pang: I’m Alex Pang. I run applications and consulting at 4 Day Week World.
Bogost: However after all, he himself could be very productive—writing all these books and speaking about them and consulting. And he’s not solely bought expertise, learning these things, however dwelling it or making an attempt to.
Bogost: What bought you curious about relaxation?
Pang: I had been within the psychology of creativity, and what it’s that helps folks have insights and type of attention-grabbing concepts.
, if you do this work, you actually spend loads of time speaking about really how individuals are working. Proper? You get into the mechanics of their labor and browse their notebooks, and that type of factor. And there are components of their lives that affect creativity. And one in every of them is what folks do with their leisure time—or with that point that offers your type of inventive unconscious a chance to work on issues, even whereas your acutely aware thoughts is elsewhere. And for a very long time, you already know, we considered that as unpredictable, as a result of fairly often it feels that manner.
However you already know, within the final 20 or so years, there’s been work in neuroscience and psychology that’s helped us higher perceive what goes on in our minds and our brains when now we have these concepts and the way sure sorts of relaxation type of create a fertile floor for type of perception and inspiration.
Bogost: So that you got here to “relaxation by creativity” in your analysis on creativity. Had been there specific figures? Did you could have, like, a job mannequin for creativity and relaxation that impressed you?
Pang: If I had to decide on one, it will in all probability be Charles Darwin. Partly as a result of, you already know, he’s a monumentally necessary determine within the artwork of historical past and the historical past of science.
Bogost: I’ve heard that.
Pang: Additionally as a result of he’s somebody whose life is exquisitely nicely documented, proper?
Pang: The Cambridge archive has 14,000 letters to and from him, and we will reconstruct with a reasonably wonderful diploma of precision the place he was, what he was doing, his each day schedule—and join that to his inventive work. Charles Darwin would work for a pair hours after which putter round within the backyard, work some extra, after which go on a protracted stroll.
What’s necessary there’s that it means that you’re, in a way, utilizing two units of inventive muscle tissues. There’s your acutely aware thoughts—the place you’re type of working to resolve issues—however then your unconscious is ready to take over and proceed desirous about issues, you already know, usually in new methods and exploring type of new connections or avenues.
Bogost: What are a few of the ways in which you’ve seen folks culturally understanding relaxation and the way it works? , particularly the way it’s totally different from their preliminary conception that “relaxation” means sleeping, or one thing alongside these traces.
Pang: One necessary factor is recognizing relaxation as train and severe hobbies.
Bogost: It’s considerably an un-intuitive thought of relaxation that it’s not essentially associated to idleness or laziness. Like, what’s relaxation really? Perhaps that’s the query I wish to ask you.
Pang: Yeah. So I feel relaxation is simply the time you spend recharging the psychological and bodily batteries that you simply spend down working. And, you already know, we frequently consider relaxation as being a wholly type of passive factor, proper? It occurs on a sofa, with a bag of snacks in a single hand and a distant within the different. However one of many issues that engaged on this taught me was that truly, essentially the most restorative sorts of relaxation usually are extra lively and extra bodily. That train, hobbies: These are issues that may be a supply of better restoration. , each within the fast run—when it comes to recharging our batteries for the afternoon—and type of sustaining inventive wellsprings over the course of our complete lives.
Bogost: So Alex, inform me extra about what you imply right here. What occurs once we relaxation? Like, what are the mechanics of relaxation?
Pang: Relaxation is the place an terrible lot of, type of, the physique’s upkeep work [is done]. The consolidation of recollections. , the type of literal cleansing out of unhealthy stuff that builds up on our mind. Mind plaque, and that type of factor
Bogost: Mind plaque?
Pang: Yeah. So if you sleep, there’s the mind. In fact it has, you already know, the neurons and all of the cool stuff that fires up in an MRI machine and makes these fairly colours. However there’s additionally a second system that type of does the arduous upkeep work of feeding the mind, but in addition taking away toxins and issues that construct up in it. And that system is type of dormant through the day if you’re actually lively.
Pang: However if you sleep, it lights up, prompts, and type of does its factor. And so the idea is that, you already know, one of many causes that unhealthy sleep is related to issues like dementia or later-life cognitive points is that the system hasn’t had a chance over time to do the type of restore and upkeep work that it will in case you have been higher rested.
Bogost: Mind plaque. I can’t wait to inform my daughter that sleep is like going to the mind dentist.
Pang: There you go.
Bogost: Thanks for that present.
Bogost: , Becca, we are likely to deal with relaxation as an indulgence. And that doesn’t appear proper. Like, after I take into consideration my associates or my colleagues, everybody appears to be speaking on a regular basis about wanting a break: “Ah, you already know, if I can solely get a break.” However then once they get one, they use it principally simply to recuperate: to, like, recuperate from all that work. And that type of relaxation—that type of recuperative relaxation, recovering from, your day or your week or no matter—okay, positive. , that appears vital.
But additionally that appears type of unhealthy: culturally, socially, morally even. I hope “relaxation” is greater than that. Like, you already know: Good relaxation would allow you to partake of your life, and to spend time in that life. It might be restorative somewhat than simply recuperative. Proper?
Rashid: Proper. And the recuperative relaxation—I imply, I nonetheless have the tendency to make relaxation into one thing I need to do somewhat than one thing I want or my physique wants. It’s by no means been relaxation for relaxation’s sake; it’s at all times been one thing I’ve to do.
Rashid: Sure, and particularly through the workday. I imply—you already know this, Ian—I don’t drink water.
Bogost: That is an ongoing, identified downside. Becca. Sure, we’re making an attempt to get you to hydrate.
Rashid: We’re getting higher at it. Like, the little issues: to only stand up from my desk, take a break, go get some water. Like essentially the most fundamental factor, relaxation at work feels so inappropriate in a manner. Even figuring out after I want the remaining—or figuring out how one can do it in a manner that feels genuinely restorative and never simply to maintain working.
So research inform us that the common data employee loses about two hours a day to overly lengthy conferences. To, you already know, inefficiencies or distractions attributable to applied sciences or poor processes.
Bogost: I’m shocked to listen to this. [Laughter.] It completely sounds regular.
Pang: And so you may get a deal with on these three issues: conferences, know-how, and distractions. You possibly can really go a great distance. And so which means doing issues like having higher assembly self-discipline across the size of conferences, agendas—all that stuff that everyone knows we should do, however all too not often don’t. It additionally means, fairly often, redesigning the workday to be extra acutely aware about the way you spend your time and having higher boundaries between, say, deep targeted work versus podcast recordings versus time with purchasers.
Pang: After which lastly, additionally desirous about how you should use your know-how in two methods. To begin with, to get rid of distractions, primary. And in order that includes issues like establishing specific occasions of day if you’re checking e mail, however staying off of it for the remainder of the time. After which, second: searching for methods in which you’ll type of increase your intelligence or your capability to do your most attention-grabbing work. And in order that’s doing issues like, you already know, utilizing AI analysis assistants or other forms of instruments that will help you be more practical on the stuff you like finest.
Bogost: What I take away from that, Becca, is the concept, in America, the aim of labor is to be at work, to not do work. , that’s an inexpensive criticism, proper?
That we’re type of cosplaying work, somewhat than really being efficient. Perhaps we’d be more practical—each in our work lives and our relaxation lives—if we took these breaks that seem naturally, like that point that seems when a gathering ends early. Like, you don’t have to fill that up with “We’ll simply sit right here within the assembly as a result of it was scheduled,” or “, I’ll simply do extra e mail now.” You possibly can simply use it for nothing, or for these different actions that might rejuvenate you—like, you might take a stroll or procure your favourite food regimen cola. Simply one thing to present your self a type of sense of being on the earth. Yeah. Not simply to care for your self and your physique—though that’s a part of it—but in addition to punctuate the work expertise as a way to then transfer on to the following job.
Rashid: Attention-grabbing. I feel a few of that performative stress makes it simpler to really feel overworked, as a result of the labor goes past simply doing all of your job, finishing duties—but in addition maintenance some picture of a always occupied, working individual.
Some latest information reveals that about 59 % of American employees are not less than reasonably burnt out, which is much more than on the peak of the pandemic.
And, worker engagement continues to say no, though now we have issues like sabbaticals and issues that might ideally stop burnout; that’s not accessible throughout most professions. And most of the people, once more, solely take them after they’ve felt overworked or with out relaxation for many years.
Bogost: When it’s too late.
Rashid: , a long time.
Bogost: Yeah; I imply, there’s bought to be some type of white house between getting up out of your desk to get some water and taking a sabbatical for a 12 months, proper?
Bogost: Is the one—or the principle—objective of relaxation to arrange for extra work?
Pang: No. And I feel it might assist us have extra productive lives and higher concepts, offers us permission to relaxation in ways in which, you already know, we would not in any other case. However, you already know, there’s a very lengthy historical past throughout just about all cultures and non secular traditions about issues just like the religious worth of relaxation, proper?
Form of the concept there are connections that we will make—or issues we will perceive about ourselves, our place on the earth, the character of our lives—that solely come once we’re resting. Or, you already know, once we’re nonetheless.
Bogost: Alex, I wish to ask you now about sabbaticals. And I’m wondering if you can begin by simply explaining to our listeners what a sabbatical is.
Pang: A sabbatical is a time period with lecturers—you already know, a semester or a 12 months the place you are taking off and sometimes go someplace else bodily. And you might be both studying some new set of abilities or engaged on another type of, you already know, skilled growth challenge, proper? One other guide. I feel that the one unhealthy sabbatical is the one that you simply don’t take.
Bogost: So, what’s the distinction between a sabbatical and a trip? A few of what you’re describing sounds such as you take day without work; you already know, you go someplace else, otherwise you don’t. And I don’t think about that a lot of our listeners wish to spend that point recharging for work.
Pang: Functionally, the primary distinction is that with sabbaticals, you could have not less than the type of define of a plan of one thing new that you simply wish to be taught, or one thing else that you simply wish to do. Holidays—you don’t go into it with the idea that you’ll grasp some new type of lab process, or, you already know, end that massive guide that’s been in your desk.
Pang: However I feel that in each circumstances that there generally is a recharge. But additionally, you already know: nice sudden insights or new concepts which you could have since you give your self the time to get away and to have a break.
Bogost: What’s an instance of a kind of discoveries or new concepts that you simply’ve seen from sabbaticals?
Pang: My favourite one is Lin-Manuel Miranda. , he talks about how he had labored on Within the Heights for seven or eight years or so, just about nonstop. And he was lastly satisfied to take a trip, and that’s when he took alongside a duplicate of the Alexander Hamilton biography.
Pang: And he mentioned, “As quickly as I gave my thoughts a break from Within the Heights, Hamilton jumped into it.” And one thing like 20 % of startups have their origins not when the [founders are] within the lab, or in entrance of the whiteboard, however once they’re on the seashore or on the mountaineering path.
Scaling out just a bit bit extra: People who find themselves each extra happy of their jobs and do higher jobs are our of us who’ve higher boundaries round not working nights and weekends, and now have different issues of their lives—whether or not it’s hobbies or households—that may occupy them.
Rashid: Ian, I’m wondering if what’s made it arduous to make relaxation a behavior in my life is the truth that the self-care rituals really feel so separate from something I’d naturally do to relaxation. Like: The type of cultural depictions of what relaxation ought to seem like, not less than for girls, are like make-up tutorials, placing on a face masks and studying a guide, or taking a bubble tub. Or no matter social media–induced ritual. However it by no means actually turns into a behavior.
Or the factor I naturally go to for relaxation, versus after I’m not even desirous about it—versus I’ll go sit down at my piano keyboard or decide up my guitar and possibly an hour or two goes by. However it simply requires much less effort, you already know?
Bogost: Attention-grabbing; yeah, I imply the habit-changing is an enormous a part of this. Becca, what I hear Alex saying is that to relaxation successfully, it is advisable fill that point with significant actions. Altering habits is absolutely arduous.
Bogost: Have you learnt this man James Clear?
Rashid: The man who wrote Atomic Habits, sure.
Bogost: Atomic Habits: type of the king of habit-building. , hundreds of thousands and hundreds of thousands of copies of this guide bought. So actually there’s one thing that folks discover helpful in it. And he’s bought loads of suggestions—however one in every of them that I discover actually attention-grabbing is that for habits to take, they must replicate your id greater than your objectives.
Bogost: When you consider behavior change, it’s not identical to, “Right here’s what I wish to do; these are the outcomes that I would like.” However: “That is the individual I wish to be”—you already know, like a greater good friend, a extra voracious reader. Uh, a extra hydrated particular person.
Rashid: [Chuckle.] Proper.
I’m usually type of averse to being instructed how one can relaxation within the “proper manner,” and I’m not alone. I’ve observed sure traits on-line, particularly amongst youngsters—there’s a sure sort of insurrection towards all of those self-care guidelines of how one can relaxation, proper? , there’s this factor known as “mattress rotting,” which has fascinated me, the place teenagers are, sure, mattress rotting.
Bogost: That doesn’t sound good, Becca.
Rashid: It’s positive. The youngsters are positive, however they’re simply—
Rashid: —possibly they’re doing nothing in mattress. , scrolling on their telephones.
Bogost: I see; okay.
Rashid: All weekend. And that’s type of the exercise.
Bogost: Proper, proper. However it’s a revolt towards the productive relaxation time, the place they’re presupposed to be, you already know, doing one thing, doing one thing else. Having a passion or a facet hustle or a skincare routine.
Rashid: Proper. It fascinates me. I imply, I see it as a type of reclaiming of relaxation for actually purposeless, like, indulgent leisure.
Bogost: Effectively, it will get again to those concepts of like: What are the circumstances beneath which relaxation is even attainable? Good relaxation, restorative relaxation—like the sort that we’re after. So like, for youngsters: The American Academy of Pediatrics has been calling for later begin occasions for varsity, particularly for highschool, for years now. At the very least since 2014, and lengthy earlier than that, I feel. As a result of youngsters are chronically sleep disadvantaged in the event that they must get up at 6 to get to high school by 7:30—partly as a result of they go to mattress late. Hormonal change, and different kinds of issues. However that’s only a minimal requirement to function; simply getting sufficient sleep. It’s not the tip of the road on the subject of relaxation.
Rashid: So it sounds to me, Ian, to seek out the time for restorative relaxation—not to mention know what that appears like for you—requires loads of deprogramming of issues that we’ve discovered from, you already know, our highschool age. Of not having sufficient sleep as an adolescent. And, you already know, transferring towards a spot the place relaxation is one thing that we all know how one can do, we don’t really feel responsible about, and we will really get pleasure from, is type of the aim, proper?
Bogost: One of many circumstances for focus work that you simply make is early rising—um, getting up early. And I’m going to inform you, Alex, I don’t like getting up within the morning. So that you’re going to must promote me on this one.
Pang: To begin with, at a sensible foundation, no one else is up early. In case you don’t like getting up, you’re not going to waste that point. I’m much less prone to, you already know, self-distract at 5 a.m.
Pang: There’s a stunning research that discovered night time owls doing issues within the early morning—or early birds engaged on issues late at night time—are likely to give you barely extra inventive options in these intervals.
Bogost: So, Alex, are you saying that that is nearly like muscle confusion or one thing? That mixing it up together with your default chronotype—the way in which that you’d usually spend your time—can lead you to make use of that point extra restfully?
Pang: That’s an effective way to place it. I feel that the one different factor I’d add is that that is one thing that actually solely works in case you observe it and in case you put together. So, put together within the sense that one of many issues that profitable early risers will usually do is ready up every part they’re going to do the night time earlier than. Like, you already know, write down the couple of issues that they’re going to work on; the questions that they’re going to reply.
Pang: So if you find yourself up at what, 5 a.m., you don’t must make selections about what you’re going to work on, proper? That’s already determined. Upfront.
Bogost: That is sensible, however do folks generally take modifications of their habits with time too far? Like, I noticed this video of a younger girl who wakes up at 3:50 within the morning to go to the gymnasium, and it feels type of like a contest for, you already know, effectiveness. “Look how a lot of the day I’m squeezing.”
Pang: Proper. , I feel that all of us must experiment and work out what works finest for us. I’m somebody who can write nicely within the early morning, however these occasions when I’ve gone to the gymnasium or, you already know, labored out with my children who have been each athletes within the early morning, I’ve slept the entire remainder of the day.
Pang: So it simply utterly wipes me out. And I feel that some folks see it merely as a manner of stretching out the variety of hours that you simply’re going to work, somewhat than appreciating that, you already know, there actually is one thing concerning the very early hours of the day that feels totally different.
Pang: I feel there’s an actual purpose why in monasteries—whether or not Catholic or Buddhist or what have you ever—that a few of the companies are held at 4 or 5 a.m. There’s a high quality to that point that in case you type of respect and work with, can ship nice advantages to you.
Rashid: So, Ian, I’m certain you’ve heard of circulation state.
Rashid: , that feeling of deep focus that momentarily permits you to really feel nearly with no sense of time.
Bogost: And it’s characterised by this sense of, like, an alignment of your skills and the challenges which might be offered to you. And that produces this sense of self esteem, and you use on this almost-virtuosic, automated manner, like an athlete in competitors.
Rashid: I’m no athlete, however I’m enthusiastic about how simply being in that mindset makes us really feel assured. I imply, are you an athlete? Do you could have any favourite circulation state–sort actions?
Bogost: I’m a sofa athlete.
Bogost: Um, napping athlete. No, I imply—to be trustworthy, Becca, I’ve at all times been a little bit suspicious of “circulation.” I’m undecided that folks ought to anticipate to have the power and the chance to, like, function their lives amongst clear objectives and direct suggestions the place their capacities completely match the circumstances of their duties and all of that.
Bogost: Like, I’m undecided that they need to anticipate that to occur fairly often.
Bogost: It’s like: Full absorption is wonderful and pleasant when it occurs. And I don’t really feel it fairly often, you already know? Like, I really feel it after I’m doing woodworking or Atari programming, however I don’t really feel that manner after I’m doing the issues at which I’m supposedly professional—you already know, like after I’m writing or mowing the garden or one thing. These should not circulation experiences to me. The time that I spend mowing lawns or hanging out with associates—I don’t wish to see them as alternatives to maximise efficiency.
Rashid: Your mindset in your free time. Sure.
Bogost: Yeah; like, it looks like a surefire method to set myself up for disappointment and to expertise much less restful time than I’d have in any other case. Like, am I getting higher at pleased hour? , that’s simply type of bizarre.
Rashid: It jogged my memory of one thing that felt very akin to circulation state—however I’d by no means give it some thought in these phrases—is rising up, I drank loads of tea with my household.
Tea-drinking rituals are type of an enormous factor in Bangladeshi tradition. And tea time was the one targeted time within the day, now that I look again on it—however it wasn’t with the intention to focus.
Rashid: So, the one job in these few hours was to make the tea, or what we name in Bangla, cha. And the break was actually only for dialog, or in Bengali what we name adda, and nothing else. And, you already know, the entire afternoon would go by; there wasn’t even this framing. There wasn’t even the mindset to get something out of it.
Pang: , I feel the excellent news about circulation is that it’s not one thing that you simply’ve bought to journey to a mountaintop with a purpose to discover. It’s one thing that we will obtain by actions nearer to house, or require much less funding and fewer time.
So for this reason gardening is one terrific, extremely localized instance of one thing that’s usually deeply participating. It’s bodily, and until you’re a gardener, it’s in all probability fairly totally different out of your day job. And gives, you already know, alternatives for that type of immersion in one other type of manner of being that may be deeply satisfying—whether or not it’s mountain climbing or gardening or taking part in chess or being musicians, or any variety of different issues.
Bogost: That makes loads of sense, Alex, undoubtedly. The concept that doing one thing totally different out of your day job or your regular observe.
I wish to ask you, Alex, about social notion because it pertains to the subjects that we’ve been discussing round relaxation and time use. As a result of it simply strikes me that there’s this aversion that now we have—as Individuals specifically—of, you already know, laziness. And, like, the one that isn’t working arduous.
Pang: It actually has made it more durable to take relaxation severely and to type of carve out an area for it. Each as people or inside organizations.
We’re at a degree, I feel, the place after the pandemic—with folks each having to reinvent how they work and having time to rethink the administrative center of their lives—an area is opening up for pondering in a different way concerning the relationship between work and time and productiveness, and the place that relaxation and leisure can have in it.
The query is how efficient or profitable we’re going to be at type of bringing extra relaxation in there.
Pang: However today, it is not uncommon data that a few of the most necessary muscle-building—you already know, the consolidation of recollections, muscle reminiscence—that doesn’t occur whilst you’re practising. It occurs whilst you’re resting. And sports activities groups now rent sleep psychologists and consultants to determine when you must have downtime.
Pang: And I feel that if folks for whom having the ability to be just a bit bit extra correct of their three-pointers—or to be a hundredth of a second sooner—have acknowledged the worth of relaxation, then that serves as a extremely good mannequin, an inspiration, for all the remainder of us.
Bogost: Alex, how do you relaxation?
Pang: So, I’ve grow to be an enormous fan of naps within the afternoon somewhat than, you already know, another cup of espresso. Once I’m engaged on a guide, I’ll stand up tremendous early and write for a pair hours earlier than I take the canine out for a stroll. And the opposite factor is that when it comes to different severe hobbies, I inherited a digicam from my dad. And for me, going out and taking photos—doing images—is a chance to watch the world in a extra considerate, conscious manner. To actually, very consciously, decelerate to concentrate to what I’m doing. And to attempt to actually see the world a little bit bit extra clearly.
Rashid: So Ian, I’m realizing—from every part that Alex taught us—that point for relaxation doesn’t imply that we’re instantly going to know how one can do it. It’s going to require a brand new type of behavior formation, proper? Like, now we have to learn to chill out. How you can restore ourselves in a manner that does really feel lively and isn’t simply on this recurring cycle of, you already know, “I’m going to spend my complete day at work.” Perhaps I’m going to the gymnasium earlier than, and after that, I have to eat to outlive.
Bogost: Yeah. He tells us he likes to nap. However that’s not the tip; that’s simply the beginning of the restful life. It might be an enormous mistake to attend till retirement, if certainly it ever comes, with a purpose to begin.
Rashid: And there’s a manner that now we have to be acutely aware about when leisure begins to really feel actually such as you’re not engaged together with your life in the way in which that you simply wish to be. Simply because it’s off time doesn’t imply that you simply’re not in your life anymore. You’re not spending your time the way in which you really need. It doesn’t imply you must lay—what did you say?—sideways and be unconscious.
Rashid: There’s a distinct type of restorative relaxation after I go over to a good friend’s home and play together with her children, and I see her journey as a father or mother. I’m, like, constructing Legos with a three-year-old and, you already know, chasing them round the home as a dragon. Issues I usually don’t get to do.
Bogost: Yeah, in case your relaxation time is time that you simply put money into actively doing one thing—
Rashid: Mm hmm.
Bogost: —your regular affair, then that’s an indication that you simply’re heading in the right direction.
Bogost: That’s all for this episode of How you can Preserve Time. This episode was hosted by me, Ian Bogost, and Becca Rashid. Becca additionally produces the present. Our editors are Claudine Ebeid and Jocelyn Frank. Reality-check by Ena Alvarado. Our engineer is Rob Smirciak. Rob additionally composed a few of our music. The chief producer of audio is Claudine Ebeid, and the managing editor of audio is Andrea Valdez.
Rashid: The one time I actually attain circulation state, although, is, like, after I’m consuming.
Bogost: That’s excellent. Yeah. Noodles. It’s all concerning the noodles.
Rashid: I’m an enormous noodle individual as nicely.
Bogost: I like circulation when it applies to ramen.